Blue Jack Dempseys - hybrids or not?

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[stilllearnin]

Seems from time to time this topic pops up in various places and I just wondered what everyones thoughts are on the subject ?

Just post your own thoughts,not what your buddy says or what your local store tells you.

Here's some interesting information on the subject:

Jeff Rapps has stated they were DNA tested and the results say they're pure dempseys -( Jeffs a nice guy and never lied to me personally that I know of and I've ordered fish from him and been extremely happy with them.)

Some other beliveable people swear they're hybrids. People who say they seen the original breeding facility.(People not well know but very beliveable in my book and that have nothing to gain or loose by saying they're hybrids)

Some clubs do not (yet?,maybe later?) reconize Blue dempseys as a purebred cichlid.

And theres the article thats claims to shed light on the subject ?

This originally comes from the site that hosts the "originator" of blue dempseys site.

http://www.elacuarista.com/inicio.htm

 

Historial:
En el criadero se utilizan reproductores portadores del gen azul que se diferencian poco o nada de un Jack Dempsey común. Pero, para ser sinceros con otros aficionados o profesionales que intenten la reproducción, hay que decir que antes de obtener el Dempsey Blue, hubo cruzas espontáneas entre Nandopsis (x Cichlasoma) octofasciatus y otras variedades de cíclidos centroamericanos, tales como Parapetenia (x Heros) (xCichlasoma) managuense(Günter 1869, foto de arriba) y Heros (xCichlasoma) synspilum (Hubbs 1935, foto de abajo), que produjeron crías infértiles si se las cruza entre sí. 

Translated

Record:
In the breeding ground there are used carrying breeding animals of the blue gene that differentiate little or nothing of a common Jack Dempsey. But, to be sincere with other fans or professionals who try the reproduction, it is necessary to say that, before obtaining Dempsey Blue, there was a  spontaneous cross between Nandopsis (x Cichlasoma) octofasciatus and other varieties of Central American, such cíclidos as Parapetenia (x Heros) (xCichlasoma) managuense (Günter 1869, photo of above) and Heros (xCichlasoma) synspilum (Hubbs 1935, photo of below), that unfertile babies produced if one crosses them between yes.

De los ejemplares obtenidos existía un número con todos los rasgos de N. octofasciatum, algunos con rasgos indefinidos y otros con rasgos de Heros (xCichlasoma) managuense. Finalmente se descartaron todos aquellos que no tuvieran rasgos de Jack Dempsey, por lo que suponemos que la aparición del gen azul debe provenir de alguno de los ejemplares cruzados con H. managuense pero que tienen toda la apariencia de N. octofasciatum.

Translated
Of the obtained copies a number existed with all the features of N. octofasciatum, some with indefinite features and others with features of Heros (xCichlasoma) managuense. Finally there discarded all those that did not have features of Jack Dempsey, for what we suppose that the appearance of the blue gene must come from some of the copies crossed with H. managuense but that they have the whole appearance of N. octofasciatum

[bobsvinyl]

I have to go along with Jeff Rapps evaluation.  There is quite a bit of contrasting information out there but who's to know which is completely factual?   We may never know the true answer.  Hector Luzardo has died and I'm sure his estate will guard his research material.  I was lucky enough to see a large pair at an lfs and they were very impressive (and expensive!)  I'd like to try them someday when the price gets lower.   

[Josee]

I have to take an official stand on the fence for this one.

The reason I find myself unable to be decisive one way or the other is indeed based on that article, to me it just puts enough of a question mark on the issue to make an absolute doubtful.

The other reason why i'm not willing to belive entirely that blue dempseys are pure is the fact that breeding them together will not result in any viable fry. That's terribly suspicious to me. Reminds me A LOT of the mule sterility syndrome, BP's, need I say more?  :lipsrsealed:

On the other hand, Jeff Rapps has proven himself to be a reputable fish dealer with good stock and good business transactions. Why on earth would he not be credible?

Very tricky issue indeed (for me anyway)

[Eric]

I have to take an official stand on the fence for this one.

The reason I find myself unable to be decisive one way or the other is indeed based on that article, to me it just puts enough of a question mark on the issue to make an absolute doubtful.

The other reason why i'm not willing to belive entirely that blue dempseys are pure is the fact that breeding them together will not result in any viable fry. That's terribly suspicious to me. Reminds me A LOT of the mule sterility syndrome, BP's, need I say more? :lipsrsealed:

On the other hand, Jeff Rapps has proven himself to be a reputable fish dealer with good stock and good business transactions. Why on earth would he not be credible?

Very tricky issue indeed (for me anyway)

  ditto

[stilllearnin]

I'm undecided right now.

I'd of liked to belive they're pure fish and breed them myself 

BUT

Theres alot of other facts and/or oponions going against it.

Here's some input I got from biologists offline

NO other recessive  color morph  has fertility or health issues like the blue dempsey does.
 Even close ones!  Like Pink/Gold dempseys.

Some people belive Double Black (solid black) angels previously had health and reproduction issues due to  them being Pterophyllum hybrids  Years ago "hybrid" black angels had the same problems that blue dempseys 


Maybe if someone succeeds or fails at makeing blue dempsey hybrids it'll finally put the debate to rest?

[seveland]

i say not hybrid for three reasons.

1. because Rapps said so 

2. although not always, hybrids usually have "hybrid vigor", or heterosis,  where they grow faster and bigger than either parent species, more resistant to diseases, usually more aggressive. blue dempseys are opposite on all three counts.

3. hybrids usually have more variation. lets say they were a cross between JD and jag for argument sake. if some looked blue as they do, other fry should look more like regular jacks, others more like jags, and others a mix of the 2. when a blue demp is bred to a regular demp, you get regulars and blues. no in betweens and none that look like another species. I think it's just a genetic trait, probably a genetic defect all things considered.


more on hybrid vigor- http://www.answers.com/topic/heterosis-1

[stilllearnin]

hybrids usually have more variation

hyrbids like flowerhorns - yes
hybrids crossed with only one other species then back to it's own  and controled - no - Blood parrots are a perfect example. Same with O.B. Peacocks,etc..

when a blue demp is bred to a regular demp, you get regulars and blues.

Have you got breeding a blue to a normal to produce blues? I was under the impression that noone had yet? Only blue X normal from a blue  - gave more blues?


I used to belive fully they weren't hybrids because Rapps said so and he is the main supplier for them and he knows his stuff no doubt  , nice guy too  Actually I think if they didn't exist yet and they poped up as fry in rapps place tommorow,that he produced I wouldn't think twice about what they were.

But I don't see why others were shown a hybrid facility in argentina, for the exact same fish and the parent species in that facility  matched what the published information says. Seems like thats alot of hastle to lie about a fish when you know the guys your showing the fish too aren't hybrid fans.

Really if told to be hybrids  at the time they came out (before the fowerhorn craze)  -the orginal people breeding them would have lost money - so why makeup a lie that  makes them loose money? Seems with other fish in this hobby it always works in reverse.

Like when others came out such as Nandopsis "big green" , Cichlasoma conkelii ,  O.B. Peacocks they were claimed to be real species ,the main dealer of them didn't say hey world I gotta say I think they're hybrids

If they're not hybrids  I can't see why Luzardo's site is still (years and years and a new owner later) still hosted by and setup as a subdomain of the place that says they made them and they're hybrids. Used to think the site was out dated but it's not - it's current. And it's used by the people selling the blue dempseys now.

lets say they were a cross between JD and jag for argument sake. if some looked blue as they do, other fry should look more like regular jacks, others more like jags, and others a mix of the 2.

I'll agree with you to a point
But if you breed back to the same it's not true - look at some of the albino africans and hybrid O.B's - same thing , - breed a flowerhorn (the less species in it the better  as an example) back to a trimac - what happens? most of the babies will look like trimacs. do it another time, and so on and so on and they'll all look the same and they're stilll hybrids.

[seveland]

I hadn't even thought about parrots. Has anyone ever bred them back to labiatus, do the fry look like red devils? This is why i hate hybrids.

About the blue x normal to make blues, i just meant normal appearance. But yes, I believe the normal appearing jack has to be from a blue parent (heterozygous) to produce blues.

I got rid of my blue jack and my het. Besides one calico convict I still have, all my fish are natural form. I think that's the route I'm going with, not even going to mess with albinos or other breeder strains.

[stilllearnin]

I hadn't even thought about parrots. Has anyone ever bred them back to labiatus, do the fry look like red devils? This is why i hate hybrids.

I haven't done it myself. I don't mess around with hybrids and I'm not a fan of them.

But I know places that do breed parrots back to labiatus and/or  citrinellus and produce bigger strains of parrots. Thats where some of the strains of king-kong parrots come from.

And people breed parrots to cons and get smaller parrots (jelly bean parrots),after a generation they all look the same as well.

[gshark7]

Just picked up a 3 inch male E. Blue Dempsey, very nice, but very, very expensive..haha

So tell me what you think, if I get three female JD's (normal strain)
Can I spawn them and get a partial clutch of Eblues?

thanks

[stilllearnin]

So tell me what you think, if I get three female JD's (normal strain)
Can I spawn them and get a partial clutch of Eblues?

thanks

Nope

You need to take

Blue dempsey bred to regular = all regulars that carry the blue genes

regular with blue genes bred to a blue = finally more blues

[toerag]

Seems from time to time this topic pops up in various places and I just wondered what everyones thoughts are on the subject ?

Just post your own thoughts,not what your buddy says or what your local store tells you.

Here's some interesting information on the subject:

Jeff Rapps has stated they were DNA tested and the results say they're pure dempseys -( Jeffs a nice guy and never lied to me personally that I know of and I've ordered fish from him and been extremely happy with them.)

Some other beliveable people swear they're hybrids. People who say they seen the original breeding facility.(People not well know but very beliveable in my book and that have nothing to gain or loose by saying they're hybrids)

Some clubs do not (yet?,maybe later?) reconize Blue dempseys as a purebred cichlid.

And theres the article thats claims to shed light on the subject ?

This originally comes from the site that hosts the "originator" of blue dempseys site.

http://www.elacuarista.com/inicio.htm

 

Historial:
En el criadero se utilizan reproductores portadores del gen azul que se diferencian poco o nada de un Jack Dempsey común. Pero, para ser sinceros con otros aficionados o profesionales que intenten la reproducción, hay que decir que antes de obtener el Dempsey Blue, hubo cruzas espontáneas entre Nandopsis (x Cichlasoma) octofasciatus y otras variedades de cíclidos centroamericanos, tales como Parapetenia (x Heros) (xCichlasoma) managuense(Günter 1869, foto de arriba) y Heros (xCichlasoma) synspilum (Hubbs 1935, foto de abajo), que produjeron crías infértiles si se las cruza entre sí. 

Translated

Record:
In the breeding ground there are used carrying breeding animals of the blue gene that differentiate little or nothing of a common Jack Dempsey. But, to be sincere with other fans or professionals who try the reproduction, it is necessary to say that, before obtaining Dempsey Blue, there was a  spontaneous cross between Nandopsis (x Cichlasoma) octofasciatus and other varieties of Central American, such cíclidos as Parapetenia (x Heros) (xCichlasoma) managuense (Günter 1869, photo of above) and Heros (xCichlasoma) synspilum (Hubbs 1935, photo of below), that unfertile babies produced if one crosses them between yes.

De los ejemplares obtenidos existía un número con todos los rasgos de N. octofasciatum, algunos con rasgos indefinidos y otros con rasgos de Heros (xCichlasoma) managuense. Finalmente se descartaron todos aquellos que no tuvieran rasgos de Jack Dempsey, por lo que suponemos que la aparición del gen azul debe provenir de alguno de los ejemplares cruzados con H. managuense pero que tienen toda la apariencia de N. octofasciatum.

Translated
Of the obtained copies a number existed with all the features of N. octofasciatum, some with indefinite features and others with features of Heros (xCichlasoma) managuense. Finally there discarded all those that did not have features of Jack Dempsey, for what we suppose that the appearance of the blue gene must come from some of the copies crossed with H. managuense but that they have the whole appearance of N. octofasciatum

Stilllearnin....back in 1969, I was in a pet shop down here in the sunny south....the guy that owned the shop was well known for his inventory if you were a big cichlid lover...and, there wasn't a whole hell of alot to choose from back then...Jags, occasional Umbies or (speckled amazonian bass) they were nick named then, a red devil every now and then but rarely, and tons of Jacks....he had a Jack Dempsey pair that he wouldn't sell....said it came from a collector in Mexico?...The female was almost pitch black...(and, when breeding, not terribly uncommon)...but the male wasn't like anything I'd ever seen...didn't look like the Blue Dempsey's we see today...but damn close....I just figured it was an odd ball colored one...but, he had an 8X10 from the guy he bought them from...and this guy had a tank full of these odd colored Dempseys....makes me wonder? I bought some of the fry back then...and they looked alot like Jag fry until they got about two inches long...they were beautiful Dempseys when they grew up...but, about like a normal jack with alot of flourescent blue, more than normal....still not like the father though...

[Death Angel]

I hadn't even thought about parrots. Has anyone ever bred them back to labiatus, do the fry look like red devils? This is why i hate hybrids.

About the blue x normal to make blues, i just meant normal appearance. But yes, I believe the normal appearing jack has to be from a blue parent (heterozygous) to produce blues.

I got rid of my blue jack and my het. Besides one calico convict I still have, all my fish are natural form. I think that's the route I'm going with, not even going to mess with albinos or other breeder strains.

I do know this I saw fry from a blood Parrot crossed with a Midas/Lab hybred and some of the fry look very close to Midas.  One fish was about 6" and would have been hard to tell.  I am with you seveland.  I am moving to the Natural forms.   

[Joe]

I'll have to take the fence position as well.  I'm not as into fish research as some of you so i get most of my information on these things from these boards. 

I have no reason to not believe Jeff Rapps.  He has a very good reputation and seems to know his stuff from what i've heard.  DNA evidence would be pretty strong.

On the other hand:

The other reason why i'm not willing to belive entirely that blue dempseys are pure is the fact that breeding them together will not result in any viable fry. That's terribly suspicious to me. Reminds me A LOT of the mule sterility syndrome, BP's, need I say more?  :lipsrsealed:

Coincidence is a scientific anomaly.  That is too coincidental for me to not give it serious consideration.  Someone would have to show me why they do not produce offspring that isn't connected to hybridization. 

[FISHEYE]

I am also a fence sitter.  I have rread about both, and I am just not 100% either way.  I would like to belive that they are purebread but I do not know.